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Is Keir Starmer or Kemi Badenoch the real Margaret Thatcher? | Free Thinking
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Mar 23, 2025
Welcome to Free Thinking, where we discuss the sharpest and most insightful takes from City AM’s opinion pages with Alys Denby, City AM's Opinion and Features Editor. In this week's episode, Alys will be asking what Margaret Thatcher would make of Keir Starmer’s plans to cut red tape for businesses and get people off welfare and into work, whether Elon Musk is a reputational risk to his own company and why it’s so hard to get your online shopping delivered. To answer these burning questions, we invited Emma Revell, external affairs director at the Centre for Policy Studies and, of course, a City AM columnist. Read more opinion pieces at City AM here 👇 https://www.cityam.com/opinion-2/ Get more of City AM 👇 🌐 http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Alys Denby, Emmanuel Nwosu, Joseph Curay Teneda #news #opinion #politics #politicalnews #ukpolitics #keirstarmer #starmer #kemibadenoch #margaretthatcher #donaldtrump #trump #elonmusk #musk #business #businessnews #tesla #freethinking
View Video Transcript
0:00
i think the problem with K star is it's
0:02
very difficult to tell what he believes
0:03
in and that means it's difficult to
0:05
predict how he will behave uh in an
0:07
emergency scenario or faced with a huge
0:09
economic challenge like this While I
0:12
don't agree with much of what Ed
0:14
Milliband is doing in the brief he has I
0:17
think what he and a vet Cooper brings to
0:19
the table is experience of government
0:21
which almost none of their cabinet level
0:23
colleagues have I think Trump will
0:25
respond as Trump likely does He'll lash
0:27
out He'll blame other people you know
0:29
he'll probably whack up some more
0:30
tariffs because it's everyone else's
0:31
fault except his He hasn't got long to
0:34
make an impact um positively for the
0:37
people who voted for him Otherwise you
0:39
know it starts to look quite tricky and
0:41
and being the sort of personality he is
0:43
you can only assume he'll lash out He's
0:45
not going to go "Sorry my bad I didn't
0:47
do the right things That's not something
0:48
Donald Trump I think has ever done." We
0:50
did get a sort of speurious legal threat
0:52
um following your article from a
0:54
delivery company known for particularly
0:55
poor service They were sort of uh making
0:57
vague threats uh related to this article
0:59
and I thought what are you going to do
1:00
deliver a summons 3 days late to the
1:02
wrong address
1:05
Good Yep Perfect Welcome to Freethinking
1:08
where we discuss the sharpest takes and
1:09
most insightful analysis from Cityam's
1:11
opinion pages with me Alice Dembi
1:14
opinion and features editor of Cityam
1:16
This week we'll be asking what Margaret
1:18
Thatcher would make of K Star's plans to
1:20
cut red tape for businesses and get
1:22
people off welfare and into work whether
1:24
Elon Musk is a reputational risk to his
1:26
own company and why it's so hard to get
1:29
your online shopping delivered And to
1:31
answer these burning questions I'm
1:33
excited to be joined by my friend Emma
1:35
Revel external affairs director at the
1:37
Center for Policy Studies and of course
1:38
a City AM columnist Emma welcome Thanks
1:41
for joining me He's best known as the
1:43
son of a toolmaker Uh but Kier Starmer
1:46
took up the pen for city this week and
1:48
wrote uh an op-ed for us um about how
1:50
he's going to cut red tape and unleash
1:53
the animal spirits of business What did
1:55
you make of this well it's nice to have
1:57
a prime minister that sounds a bit like
1:58
a Tory for a change all of this
2:00
deregulation You go "Oh this is nice
2:02
This sounds good." I think I'm inclined
2:05
to give him some credit because it does
2:06
sound good He's saying the things that I
2:08
think businesses want to hear I think
2:10
the problem is that he's been saying the
2:11
things business want to hear for a while
2:13
when Labour were in opposition They knew
2:15
that they would need you know the
2:16
support of business to regain
2:17
credibility They got that They got
2:19
people on board They thought okay this
2:21
is going to be better than we had
2:23
expected especially with historic sort
2:25
of labor oppositions of the last decade
2:26
or so And then got into government and
2:29
that's not what we saw That's not what
2:31
we saw from Rachel Reeves' budget It's
2:33
not what we've seen from several other
2:34
announcements the government has made so
2:36
far So you sort of think well the the
2:38
the rhetoric is great the action doesn't
2:41
quite match I mean how does it feel so
2:43
you're you work for a free market think
2:44
tank How does it feel to be sort of
2:46
almost in a way getting the things that
2:48
you've asked for but from the wrong team
2:50
well you know we can't can't complain
2:52
You know the whole point of the Center
2:54
for Politics is to push free market
2:56
ideas You know we want economic growth
2:58
We spent a lot of time talking about how
3:00
just fundamental getting back to
3:02
economic growth is for the success of
3:04
the country individuals businesses the
3:06
economy It doesn't matter what sort of
3:08
lens you're looking at it We need
3:09
economic growth um to survive never mind
3:12
to thrive So any politician who wants to
3:15
talk about those things is you know
3:17
incredibly welcome but they need to be
3:19
held to account on what they actually do
3:21
in practice I think the question here as
3:22
you exactly say is delivery Um and
3:25
there's a deep irony I think with Kama
3:27
talking about cutting regulation when at
3:29
the same time he's his workers rights
3:30
bill is going to impose a whole bunch of
3:32
new obligations and so on on employers
3:35
Um so I I mean I agree with you I think
3:37
we do need to give this government
3:38
credit They're saying a lot of things
3:39
that we want to hear Um but I guess you
3:42
know are they going to manage to deliver
3:44
it when at the same time you know
3:46
they're doing all these anti-
3:48
businessiness things and that that I
3:49
think is what worries people Even if you
3:51
are inclined to get some credit for the
3:53
rhetoric you have to sort of look not
3:55
even just at Karma you know the rest of
3:57
his cabinet and especially at his
3:58
backbenches some of the you know if you
4:00
go not necessarily looking at
4:02
deregulation but welfare reforms these
4:05
are also things that absolutely need to
4:06
happen um for you know the health of the
4:09
economy and the people Backbes are not
4:12
happy with that They're not going to be
4:13
happy with some of the deregulatory
4:14
measures that Kama wants to take They're
4:16
not going to be happy with some of the
4:17
measures on housing that he wants to
4:19
take So he's going to have a challenge
4:21
to bring the party with him and deliver
4:24
And this is maybe a little bit think
4:25
tank inside baseball but there's kind of
4:27
a deep irony that his new city minister
4:29
to Bell used to run the resolution It
4:31
was one of the most critical think tanks
4:33
whenever the welfare reforms were
4:35
mentioned and he's now having to go on
4:36
the on the broadcast rounds defending
4:38
this Um and I think this brings into
4:40
question you know I don't think anybody
4:42
in Labor thought they were getting into
4:44
government to cut welfare and to cut
4:47
regulations and so on And I think their
4:49
early actions in government suggest that
4:51
you know one of the first things they
4:52
did was massive public sector pay rises
4:54
Um and of course this workers rights
4:56
bill You can tell this is something that
4:57
Angela Raina believes in Yeah I think
4:59
this is the thing here is that you know
5:01
Karma has got into government faced with
5:02
the reality and that's now coming into
5:04
conflict with his his real values And I
5:08
think the values of his backbenches
5:09
especially he seems a little bit more
5:11
comfortable with it I think because he
5:13
is a realist I think he's quite
5:14
pragmatic Yeah Um and is recognizing the
5:17
challenges that face the country I think
5:19
Rachel Reeves probably is as well to a
5:21
certain extent Um not that she's fully
5:24
captured the realism of the impact of
5:26
you know some of her budget measures Um
5:28
I think Liz Kendall as well probably
5:30
does see the need you know I think when
5:32
you get into departments like the
5:34
Treasury you get into number 10 you get
5:35
into the DWBP you look at the books you
5:38
see the numbers and you go "Oh Okay."
5:41
Yeah we're not going to be able to do
5:43
everything we want to do and we're going
5:45
to have to make some really tough
5:46
decisions And I think what has been a
5:47
problem in the last you know 14 years of
5:50
conservative governments is not not
5:52
everybody but not enough politicians
5:54
were willing to make those tough
5:55
decisions or have the conversation with
5:57
the British public about well here's why
6:00
we need to do these things I think
6:01
that's important whether it's welfare or
6:04
housing or or any sort of growth measure
6:06
Bringing the public with you and
6:07
explaining this is the scale of the
6:09
challenge It is not sustainable it is
6:11
not good for us and we need to change I
6:14
think that brings us quite nicely Look I
6:16
think the problem with K star is it's
6:18
very difficult to tell what he believes
6:19
in and that means it's difficult to
6:21
predict how he will behave uh in an
6:23
emergency scenario or faced with a huge
6:26
economic challenge like this But one
6:28
person who was always clear about what
6:29
she believed in was Margaret Thatcher
6:31
who uh the CPS was celebrating this week
6:33
at the Margaret Thatcher conference Um
6:35
we had a a keynote speech from Chem
6:38
Badnock in which she very much tried to
6:40
sort of adopt the mantle of Margaret
6:41
Thatcher And she had she had a great
6:43
line I think um you don't fix a broken
6:46
nation by making the state bigger but by
6:48
making the people stronger I did like
6:50
that line But what did you make of her
6:52
speech what did what did you think of
6:53
this as a as a sort of launch of herself
6:56
into the I don't know into the public
6:59
consciousness i think you know I think
7:01
it was a great speech I think she got
7:03
the message across she wanted to get
7:05
across Um but I think you know she
7:08
didn't make too many policy
7:09
announcements That's not what the speech
7:10
was for And she had another speech the
7:13
next day launching her policy
7:14
commissions talking a lot about net zero
7:16
that made a lot of headlines That was
7:17
sort of where the the the meat of policy
7:20
announcements was coming I think what
7:21
she intended to do and what she did by
7:23
coming to the center for policy studies
7:25
conference was speak to Tory faithful
7:28
Tory policy makers free people who
7:30
really truly believe in free markets as
7:32
she does and say this is what I believe
7:35
I am with you here's how we're going to
7:38
you know get things done not the
7:39
nitty-gritty of you know the
7:41
implementation but the spirit I think
7:42
she certainly got that across and what
7:44
do you think as you said she also made
7:46
another speech saying that uh reaching
7:48
net zero by 2050 is impossible being I
7:51
mean I think you were talking about the
7:52
need for politicians to be a bit braver
7:53
and to be a bit more honest with the
7:55
people about the scale of the challenge
7:57
Um do you think that's what this
7:59
represents i think so and I think you
8:02
know it represents a discontent within
8:04
the general public not with you know
8:06
decarbonization I think the public you
8:08
know most polls almost all polls show
8:11
that the public are very concerned about
8:13
climate change It's one of their top
8:14
concerns They want to see mitigations is
8:16
they want to see measures that reduce
8:18
Britain's carbon impact in the world but
8:20
they don't want to do that at the
8:22
expense of their own comfort their own
8:24
financial stability their family's
8:26
well-being And that's something the
8:28
public are very clear on Conservative
8:30
backbenches are particularly clear on
8:32
And I think KMU is is simply responding
8:34
to that and being realistic and saying
8:36
look it's not about denying that we need
8:38
to make change It's not about saying
8:40
that we don't need to decarbonize It's
8:42
about saying we need to decarbonize in a
8:44
way that is sustainable in a way that
8:46
works for the economy and also in a way
8:48
that works for British industry because
8:49
if if we decarbonize off the back of
8:51
de-industrializing the nation that's you
8:54
know serious economic damage to the
8:56
country Yeah absolutely But I think one
8:58
person who probably is doesn't agree
9:01
with that is Ed
9:02
Milliband And I mean talking about sort
9:04
of Kstarma's problems with his own
9:05
backbenches I think Ed Milliband is
9:07
definitely a tricky one How do you rate
9:09
his chances of making it uh as far as
9:12
the next election i guess in that job I
9:15
I would be inclined to think he probably
9:16
won't be in that job in the next five
9:19
four I suppose now years Um partly
9:22
because he himself really truly believes
9:24
in this Yeah And I think he is going to
9:27
struggle if Kama says we need to water
9:30
down some of these measures You know I
9:33
can see uh from his perspective Ed
9:35
Milliban's perspective a principled
9:37
resignation essentially I think he could
9:39
say no no I really do believe in this
9:42
I'm not able to keep collective
9:43
responsibility I don't want to water
9:44
down these measures so I'm you know
9:46
thank you but I'm I'm going to step back
9:49
um because he has believed in this for
9:50
so long but I think while I don't agree
9:53
with much of what Ed Milliband is doing
9:55
in the brief he has I think what he and
9:58
a vet Cooper brings to the table is
9:59
experience of government which almost
10:01
none of their cabinet level colleagues
10:04
have and I think that is important so I
10:07
think if I'm wiki Army you'd probably be
10:09
more inclined to potentially try and
10:11
move him to sort of pate him if you can
10:14
keep him his experience around the
10:16
cabinet table but I think Ed Milliban
10:18
truly believes in his mission as he sees
10:21
it on
10:22
decarbonization So I think a principal
10:25
resignation is more likely than him
10:27
being in place come the next election
10:29
Yeah absolutely Now another thing that
10:31
touches on net zero which we've been
10:33
talking about a lot in Citym this week
10:35
is the fortunes of Tesla Um so Tesla's
10:37
stocks uh have taken a massive hammering
10:40
this week I think sales are down uh by
10:43
close to 50% in some jurisdictions We've
10:46
even had some investors say that Elon
10:49
Musk needs to step down as CEO because
10:51
he's you know close close relationship
10:54
with Donald Trump He's you know
10:55
essentially the second man in that
10:56
administration is now becoming a
10:58
reputational harm to his company What do
11:01
you make of this i think it's just kind
11:02
of an interesting object lesson in the
11:05
challenges of mixing politics and
11:07
business and the challenge of having a
11:09
business that is so rellyant on a
11:13
figurehead in this way when your
11:15
business is so clearly associated with
11:17
one person who has a big personality
11:20
That's putting it politely I think
11:21
that's the tactful way to phrase it Um
11:24
that can go either way it can be a
11:25
massive advantage You know if if all of
11:28
your recognition is through someone who
11:29
is you know by many metrics a great
11:32
media performer he attracts a lot of
11:33
attention that can be incredibly
11:35
positive for an organization But when
11:36
that doesn't go the way you would hope
11:39
the damage is significant And I think
11:41
that's what Tesla is seeing now I think
11:43
it's also a question of when a business
11:44
forgets that its main purpose should be
11:46
maximizing returns for its shareholders
11:49
If you get involved in other stuff yeah
11:51
um that's only going to lead one way Um
11:54
but I think this could have much bigger
11:55
ramifications for the Trump
11:57
administration He saw a big sort of uh
11:59
economic boost when he took office
12:00
There's lots of hope for um the fortunes
12:02
of Silicon Valley Uh lots depends for
12:05
him I think on delivering for his voters
12:07
economically Um you know inflation's
12:09
still high It was you know basically
12:12
it's always the economy isn't it and it
12:14
was the you know it was the effects of
12:16
inflation that people were feeling in
12:17
their lives thanks to the Biden
12:18
administration even though looking at it
12:20
from our perspective we see a massively
12:22
booming economy Um but if Silicon Valley
12:25
can't sort of keep that momentum going
12:28
how do you think that plays out for
12:30
Trump's fortunes domestically i mean I
12:32
know we're not Americans here but Well I
12:34
think it can only go badly you know if
12:36
if if some of the most productive parts
12:38
of your economy are taking a massive hit
12:41
directly or indirectly because of things
12:42
people within your administration are
12:44
doing and saying um never mind you know
12:47
the the impact that Trump's tariffs are
12:48
likely to have once those kick in in
12:50
various
12:51
jurisdictions It's only going to be bad
12:53
for him I think Trump will respond as
12:55
Trump likely does He'll lash out He'll
12:57
blame other people you know he'll
12:58
probably whack up some more tariffs
13:00
because it's everyone else's fault
13:01
except his But if you know he's only got
13:05
18 months two years you know he he can't
13:09
run again He might try because he's
13:11
Donald Trump but you know he should only
13:12
do two terms
13:15
He hasn't got long to make an impact um
13:18
positively for the people who voted for
13:20
him Otherwise you know it starts to look
13:23
quite tricky and and being the sort of
13:25
personality he is you can only assume
13:26
he'll lash out Yeah He's not he's not
13:29
going to go "Sorry my bad I didn't do
13:31
the right things That's not something
13:32
Donald Trump I think has ever done." No
13:34
And it also feels like economically
13:37
speaking he's forgotten that fundamental
13:38
lesson of the sort of Reagan and
13:39
Thatcher era that free trade is the
13:42
route to prosperity Um tariffs will only
13:45
make it will only be American consumers
13:47
who pay for tariffs And we're also
13:49
seeing what a sort of political backlash
13:52
it's having in you know for with
13:54
consumers here in Europe um rejecting
13:56
American products like Tesla Um so yeah
14:00
I think the other interesting thing that
14:02
Elliot Wilson covered in his column was
14:04
that Trump himself has gone on a massive
14:07
journey with electric cars I think you
14:08
know he's called them like a hoax
14:11
Um you know he he he doesn't really
14:13
believe in net zero but now he's like
14:15
buying a Tesla and calling it beautiful
14:17
And I think it really reveals well what
14:19
Elliot argues it reveals he doesn't have
14:20
an economic policy He only has personal
14:23
grudges Yes he has he has some very
14:26
particular beliefs not all of which are
14:28
grounded in sort of economic reality I
14:30
the other part of Elliot's piece I
14:32
particularly like was the point that
14:33
Trump has bought a car he is not allowed
14:35
to drive The Secret Service will not
14:37
allow current or former presidents to
14:39
drive So I don't know what he's going to
14:41
do with it Just park it somewhere and
14:42
look at it Okay Put it in a golden lift
14:44
It's wonder he didn't buy a gold one to
14:46
be honest Oh god Yeah
14:49
Um All right I think that's enough of
14:51
Trump and Musk Um let's talk about an
14:54
excellent column you wrote for us which
14:55
proved very popular um on the travailes
14:58
of package delivery Yes My unexpected
15:01
career as a delivery driver I didn't
15:03
sign up for it I didn't apply I've
15:05
become a parcel delivery person just
15:08
because of the sheer sort of frustration
15:12
of realizing that when you buy things
15:14
online which we've all done we all do
15:17
daily Some people I certainly weekly
15:19
packages arrive at my house on my office
15:21
Um but when those delivery services are
15:24
contracted you're actually not the
15:26
customer It's between that private
15:28
delivery company and the retailer you
15:30
bought from They're the ones contracting
15:32
that service Your ability to receive the
15:35
parcel is very much secondary Yeah You
15:38
know if you buy from a retailer they
15:39
need it out of their warehouse onto the
15:41
delivery van the delivery van drops it
15:43
off They might drop it off at your house
15:45
ideally inside your house They might
15:46
leave it on the doorstep They might give
15:48
it to a neighbor They won't tell you
15:50
which neighbor and you go on some sort
15:51
of weird game trying to introduce
15:52
yourself to the whole neighborhood going
15:53
"Do you have a parcel of by any chance?"
15:56
They might say "Oh no You have to come
15:58
and collect it from a delivery you know
16:00
a depot It's nowhere near you you can't
16:03
get it redelivered or you can get it
16:05
redelivered but only between 9 and 5
16:07
It's like I'm not in my house I'm in the
16:08
office Yeah I didn't I didn't see this
16:10
coming And I think the a interesting
16:14
sort of business point that you made is
16:15
that normally um you know normally the
16:18
way to improve customer service through
16:19
competition but there's lots of
16:21
competition in the career industry but
16:22
it doesn't quite work for the consumer
16:24
Yeah Because you're not the one making
16:26
the choice So I think you know the point
16:28
I made in the column is is it was
16:29
triggered by a week in which I've had
16:31
four different delivery
16:32
services try and come to my house only
16:34
one of which was partially successfully
16:36
getting it to me on the day that I
16:38
thought it was coming Um because I can't
16:40
choose anything else If someone tells me
16:42
it's coming by courier A or courier B
16:44
that's a choice the retailer has made
16:47
you're most the only real choice you
16:48
have is collect in store or delivery You
16:52
don't get to choose a delivery company
16:54
because it's not convenient for the
16:56
retailer to have to deal with you know
16:59
two three four five different courier
17:01
services But I think you could make that
17:03
a premium service You could make it pay
17:05
you know going I'm happy to pay more
17:08
because it means that I have a little
17:09
bit more control about maybe a narrower
17:12
window of delivery You can already pay
17:13
more for next day for expedited delivery
17:16
and people are very willing to do that
17:18
So it seems like something I'd certainly
17:20
be first in the queue to go yes if I you
17:22
know I trust courier B Yeah that's my
17:25
that's my preferred option Oh what was
17:26
quite funny is we uh we did get a sort
17:28
of speurious legal threat um following
17:31
your article from a uh let's say a
17:34
delivery company known for particularly
17:35
poor service So so well known um for for
17:39
bad service that it changed its name Um
17:42
but yes they they were sort of uh making
17:45
vague threats uh related to this article
17:47
and I thought well what are you going to
17:48
do deliver a summon 3 days late to the
17:50
wrong address as long as they try and
17:52
deliver it to you and not to me that's
17:53
fine They shouldn't have a name that
17:54
lends itself so readily to puns They
17:56
should not Um well I think that's where
17:59
we shall wrap it up But thanks so much
18:01
for uh chatting through the week in
18:03
opinion for free thinking Thanks for
18:05
having me
18:10
[Music]
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