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Can Trump's trade deal turn the UK economy around? | Free Thinking
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May 14, 2025
Here at City AM, we aim to inspire debate and give you all the analysis you need to make the best possible arguments. In this week’s edition of Free Thinking, City AM Opinion and Features Editor Alys Denby ask if Donald Trump’s free trade deal is the answer to Britain’s economic woes or a political gesture that leaves us worse off? To discuss this, plus the illusion of National Insurance and the enduring significance of VE Day, Alys is joined by former government advisor, City AM columnist and self-confessed red-faced patriot, James Price. Get more thought-provoking opinions here 👇 https://www.cityam.com/opinion-2/ Get more of City AM 👇 🌐 http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Alys Denby, Emmanuel Nwosu, Scarlett Wild #donaldtrump #trump #trade #tradedeal #tradewar #tariffs #uk #keirstarmer #starmer #ukeconomy #ukpolitics #news #politics #politicalnews #economy #economics #business #businessnews #personalfinance #finance #usa #usnews #reform #reformparty #nigelfarage #labour #labourparty #tory #conservative #conservativeparty
View Video Transcript
0:00
we had a report from the National
0:01
Institute of Economic and Social
0:02
Research out today predicting that
0:03
Rachel Reeves is going to miss her own
0:05
fiscal targets by what six billion or so
0:07
and that the OBR has yet again got it
0:10
wrong what six billion amongst friends
0:13
well I one point there the OBR being
0:15
wrong it's wrong every single time not
0:17
entirely sure what the point of the
0:18
institution is at this point okay it
0:20
took down uh it had a part in taking
0:22
down a prime minister shall we say i
0:24
think the markets were perfectly capable
0:25
of doing that themselves and if we don't
0:28
see a conservative party sort itself out
0:30
reform keep growing and keep
0:31
cannibalizing both their vote and the
0:33
Labour vote there isn't probably going
0:34
to be as much of a pro business voice
0:37
out there because although Farage I
0:39
suspect in his heart of heart as a city
0:41
metal trader to start with he's probably
0:43
actually a massive Thatcherite really
0:45
although he wouldn't admit to it the
0:47
economic platform would I think he would
0:48
say that he was her true heir what about
0:50
films what about Paddington Bear the
0:53
Paddington stuff i mean it really is
0:54
crazy isn't it ed Davey I think is the
0:56
person who said this isn't it if you
0:58
come after uh Bridget Jones and
1:00
Paddington you've got another thing
1:02
coming this is a party of Gladston right
1:04
and now you've got this complete joker
1:06
making these sorts of fasile points it
1:08
is enough to make a cat laugh but no one
1:09
else at this point as opinion and
1:11
feature editor of City AM my aim is to
1:14
inspire debate and give you the analysis
1:16
you need to make the best arguments and
1:18
in this series I try to put a human face
1:20
on the comment you'll read in our pages
1:22
today that human is former government
1:24
adviser Citym columnist and
1:26
self-confessed red-faced patriot James
1:29
Price james welcome to Free Thinking so
1:31
you join us in a week of possibly good
1:35
economic news k has announced two free
1:37
trade deals one we know with India we're
1:40
filming this on Thursday so we're yet to
1:41
find out the details but Donald Trump
1:43
has said we're going to have a
1:44
comprehensive free trade deal with
1:45
America is this going to turn Britain
1:47
around i don't think it's going to turn
1:49
Britain around that is perhaps wishful
1:51
thinking would that it were uh what's
1:53
very interesting about this is that
1:54
we're seeing the increased
1:55
politicization of trade and that trade
1:58
was a big talking point during the
2:00
Brexit shenanigans i won't say Brexit
2:02
wars exactly because it hasn't got that
2:04
bad just yet um and we saw a lot of
2:06
people saying well you know our biggest
2:08
trading partner is the EU and we've got
2:09
all these trade barriers that we're now
2:11
going to put up with our biggest trading
2:12
partner and people saying no it's great
2:14
because we're going to go and strike
2:15
these sorts of deals with the rest of
2:16
the world well these deals are starting
2:18
to come in now and you're starting to
2:19
see some people who were big Brexit
2:21
advocates saying "No no this is the
2:23
wrong kind of deal this isn't right."
2:24
And you've got some people who were
2:26
advocates for the EU going "Oh no this
2:27
is a good deal after all." So I think it
2:29
just shows the kind of how partisan
2:30
things are partly perhaps because trade
2:32
deals are quite complicated and there's
2:34
lots of detail in there and people in
2:35
Westminster unlike the city don't like
2:37
detail very much and is this tricky for
2:40
Kier Stalmer because I've seen all over
2:42
Twitter people are retweeting things
2:44
that he said um years ago that a free
2:46
trade deal with the US would mean
2:48
selling the NHS um does is this
2:51
politically difficult for him or is this
2:53
actually just we should welcome it
2:54
because it's good economic news yeah I
2:55
think the answer is both to that you're
2:57
right it's always very funny to see when
2:58
Labour do this david Lambie I think has
3:00
been the best proponent of this where he
3:02
said that Donald Trump is worse than
3:04
Hitler and all those sorts of silly
3:05
things and now he's having to go "Oh
3:06
isn't it great we've got a great deal."
3:08
I think that we should try and move
3:09
beyond just the the the politics however
3:12
tempting it is for someone like me to
3:13
want to stick on it and say that by and
3:15
large this is good news the problem is
3:17
of course that in a weekend where we've
3:19
just seen an absolute shellacking of
3:20
both of the main parties by reform
3:23
around the issues of mass migration and
3:25
all these things it's not great quote
3:27
optics as some people would say to
3:29
suddenly see a lot more Indian visa
3:31
workers coming into the UK and not
3:33
having to pay national insurance now
3:35
that might be counteracted by the fact
3:37
that they're just not paying the tax
3:38
back over in India and so it makes sense
3:40
and this occurs in some of the other
3:42
trade deals as well but it doesn't feel
3:45
great at the time when national
3:46
insurance hikes are going up at all and
3:48
of course what we should actually do is
3:49
just as I think someone said John Oxley
3:51
said in CCM today we should just abolish
3:53
national insurance is a complete fiction
3:56
all the money goes into the same pot
3:57
anyway by and large i think there's a
4:00
technical hypothecation whereby you know
4:02
if you bring in more than you assume
4:04
then you buy some guilts but I don't
4:05
think that ever works abolish the whole
4:07
thing employers and employees national
4:08
insurance roll it all into a single
4:10
income tax that would be a lot more
4:12
honest and we wouldn't have to worry
4:13
about headlines like this yeah let's be
4:15
clear i think people think that national
4:17
insurance contributes to some kind of
4:19
pot that you pay into and you get it
4:20
back later in your life but it's not
4:22
that it's not that way at all national
4:23
insurance is essentially I think I saw
4:25
Robert Cville on Twitter call it income
4:26
tax with a false mustache
4:29
yeah that's exactly right like Mr snarub
4:31
in the Simpsons not being Mr burns yeah
4:33
you're exactly right and it'd be
4:35
interesting to see any details of the
4:36
American uh deal if when it comes along
4:38
my wife is American and not only has to
4:41
pay income tax here and employees
4:43
national insurance and an NHS sir charge
4:45
by the way she also still has to pay
4:47
federal taxes back in the United States
4:49
because they're one of only three
4:51
countries in the world that requires
4:52
that as well and so if we want to be
4:54
attracting the best and the brightest
4:56
and I'm not just saying that because I'm
4:57
married to one of them America counts as
4:58
lots of that you know we're going to
5:00
have to look at the incentives for this
5:01
but it does look pretty rum when you're
5:03
actually whacking up taxes for
5:05
hardworking and hardpressed Brits in
5:07
order to then make it easier for
5:09
companies here to employ Indians rather
5:11
than Brits so what exactly should we be
5:14
looking out for in the detail of this US
5:16
free trade deal we don't know yet but
5:18
what what should we be hoping for are we
5:20
gonna be seeing chlorine chicken coming
5:22
over here are we going to be seeing you
5:25
know are we going to see reduction in
5:27
maybe our tariffs on cars and steel
5:29
going over to America yeah I hope and
5:31
what about films what about Paddington
5:32
Bear the Paddington stuff i mean it
5:35
really is crazy isn't it ed Davyy I
5:37
think is the person who said this isn't
5:38
it if you come after uh Bridget Jones
5:41
and Paddington you got another thing
5:43
coming this is a party of Gladston right
5:45
and now you've got this complete joker
5:47
making these sorts of fasile points it
5:49
is enough to make a cat laugh but no one
5:50
else at this point um I hope what we see
5:53
is a an amelioration of any of the
5:55
effects of Trump's tariffs i think
5:57
that's partly why it's been rushed out
5:59
obviously a lot of the the detail in the
6:01
deal was worked out in the earlier
6:03
conservative years under the first Trump
6:05
administration and the whole sorry thing
6:07
was put on ice over the Biden years
6:08
because they had no interest in striking
6:10
out bilateral deals like this hopefully
6:12
it will uh it will mean that and that
6:14
will be a good thing for the car
6:15
industry it would be a good thing for
6:16
lots of others and it will set an
6:18
example for the rest of the world that
6:20
they can also do deals like this and the
6:22
Trump administration will be then forced
6:24
into clarifying whether their tariffs
6:27
are just a way of making money whether
6:30
they are just a negotiating tactic
6:32
whether they are some other magic 4 D
6:34
chess maneuver or what what they are so
6:36
you'll start seeing other details coming
6:38
through with other deals as well that
6:39
would be a good thing for the global
6:41
economy and I think that in terms of the
6:43
chlorine chicken point I mean anybody
6:46
that buys a bag of of salad uh on their
6:48
way home watching this tonight that's
6:49
been washed in chlorine if anyone's
6:51
lucky enough to have a swimming pool I'm
6:52
not you know you you you go around
6:54
swimming and and having a fun time in
6:56
this sort of stuff and I think it's
6:57
complete nonsense scaremongering stuff
6:59
from people who were just determined
7:01
during those dark Brexit years to make
7:03
Brexit seem as terrible and awful as
7:05
possible i mean I agree with you i I
7:07
sort of think that people should be
7:09
given the choice right have clear
7:10
labeling um and let people choose but I
7:12
suppose um our farmers our British
7:14
farmers would argue that they have much
7:16
higher standards of animal welfare and
7:19
so on and uh at the same time they're
7:21
being hit very hard at the moment by
7:24
inheritance tax changes i mean you're
7:25
dressed like a farmer today James how
7:27
much sympathy do you have with those
7:29
arguments well enormously but I think
7:31
that people will as you say have the
7:33
freedom to choose most people would love
7:35
to to buy British produce and you watch
7:37
things like Clarkson's farm and you see
7:39
how great these people are if you go to
7:41
the protests people dress up even more
7:43
laughing like a farmer actual real
7:44
farmers the great people that get up
7:46
early and keep us fed people have the
7:48
choice to do it but sometimes actually
7:49
if you can get really cheap goods in
7:51
there that could be a wonderful thing
7:52
for poor people who are just trying to
7:54
get protein rich diets for their
7:56
children and things like that and if you
7:58
start messing stop messing around with
7:59
so many of the difficult burdens that
8:01
we're putting on the farming industry
8:04
even before we get on to the horror of I
8:06
think the very kind of classbased um
8:08
inheritance tax changes you're talking
8:09
about then they could start to compete
8:11
on an even keel saw subsidies I think
8:13
when New Zealand in particular in the
8:15
80s were taken away and the farming
8:17
industry crashed there for a very brief
8:18
period of time and now also the lamb
8:20
that we eat it saw from New Zealand
8:22
they're amazing at it the Australians
8:24
the same and so I think that market
8:25
forces will help improve it here we just
8:27
in the same time have to take our
8:29
metaphorical feet feet off the neck of
8:32
farmers and let them be able to compete
8:33
with these things properly yeah we had a
8:34
report from the national institute of
8:36
economic and social research out today
8:37
predicting that Rachel Reeves is going
8:39
to miss her own fiscal targets by what
8:41
six billion or and that the OBR has yet
8:43
again got it wrong what six blade
8:46
amongst friends well I one point there
8:48
the OBR being wrong it's wrong every
8:50
single time i'm not entirely sure what
8:52
the point of the institution is at this
8:54
point okay it took down uh it had a part
8:57
in taking down a prime minister shall we
8:58
say i think the markets were perfectly
9:00
capable of doing that themselves and of
9:02
course the the existence of the bond
9:03
markets means you don't really need to
9:05
have the OBR putting these kinds of
9:06
pressures and since the OBR was founded
9:08
what's happened to the national debt
9:09
what's happened to deficits it's still
9:11
gone absolutely crackers on these things
9:13
so I think that those predictions are
9:14
probably not worth the paper they're
9:15
written on when it comes to re spending
9:17
targets well again you talk down the
9:19
economy enormously you make it more
9:21
difficult to do business you say that
9:23
everybody despite by the way when
9:24
they're in opposition trying to woo the
9:26
city and woo big business you still
9:28
fundamentally treat the wealth creators
9:31
the people you can see in these lovely
9:32
buildings here you treat them as
9:34
dreadfully as Labour do is it any
9:36
surprise that things are in the doldrums
9:38
is it any surprise when you're not
9:39
dealing with things like crime you're
9:40
not dealing with all the sorts of other
9:42
social problems you've got and huge
9:44
taxes that loads of millionaires and
9:46
other rich people are starting to leave
9:47
the country at all 10,000 millionaires
9:50
go and most of them are all going
9:51
somewhere like the UAE that's half a
9:53
million regular taxpayers equivalent and
9:56
so the bill is going to be put up for
9:57
the rest of us at some point the penny
9:59
if there are any pennies left is going
10:01
to have to drop we're seeing the tax
10:03
take reduce right yeah right completely
10:05
right and they just don't understand and
10:07
I do think that it's the fact that
10:08
Rachel Reeves is the only person really
10:10
in that whole cabinet who's got any
10:12
private sector experience at all by the
10:14
way so if she goes who knows what
10:16
exactly it was well exactly and it's not
10:19
even as impressive as it was but she's
10:20
still the best that the Labor front
10:22
bench have got when it comes to
10:23
understanding the mindset that people
10:24
who want to go and make a decent return
10:26
make some money and keep some of what
10:28
they earn that's not evil and selfish
10:30
that's one of the most human moral
10:32
creative functions and feelings that
10:33
there is i think city aim readers will
10:35
applaud that sentiment um and what about
10:39
the conservatives the supposed party of
10:41
business now um they received an
10:43
absolute drubbing in the local elections
10:46
huge support seeing for reform taking
10:48
votes of conservatives and labor at the
10:50
same time um we've had various bits of
10:53
analysis in Citym of this over the week
10:55
perhaps the most punchy was from uh
10:59
William Atkinson who said that Kem Bay
11:02
has to go there's no way the tries can
11:03
turn their fortunes around with her
11:05
still in leadership what What do you
11:07
make of that will being
11:08
characteristically on the fence there
11:09
he's going to get splinters if he's not
11:11
careful uh I think that the idea in the
11:14
abstract of the Conservatives having
11:16
their worst ever defeat going away
11:18
licking their wounds and going back to
11:20
first principles and trying to work out
11:22
a whole theory of change that sounds
11:24
great on paper um and some of that is
11:26
starting already to bear some fruit some
11:29
sensible moves from KB not to move away
11:31
from the madness about net zero and lots
11:33
of other ideas there'll be no more
11:34
sacred cows that's very encouraging a
11:36
bill about deportations that's been
11:38
drafted by them has dropped this week as
11:40
well which seems pretty punchy in I
11:42
think a very agreeable way that's going
11:44
to have to be done in order to keep some
11:46
semblance of of of safe society out
11:48
there frankly but I think that it needs
11:49
to go a lot lot faster because you you
11:52
don't Margaret Thatcher when she started
11:54
doing all of this in the mid1 1970s
11:56
didn't have a a resurgent right-wing
11:58
populist party breathing down her neck
12:01
the way that reform are and if we don't
12:03
see a conservative party sort itself out
12:05
reform keep growing and keep
12:06
cannibalizing both their vote and the
12:08
Labor vote there isn't probably going to
12:10
be as much of a pro business voice out
12:12
there because although Farage I suspect
12:15
in his heart of heart is a city metal
12:16
trader to start with he's probably
12:18
actually a massive Thatcherite really
12:20
although he wouldn't admit to it their
12:22
economic I think he would say that he
12:24
was her true heir well yeah that's
12:26
that's maybe right but some of the
12:27
policies they've got coming out are
12:29
starting to sound pretty socialist
12:30
talking about nationalizing things big
12:32
big parts of the economy talking about
12:34
um some silly things about energy that
12:36
they won't allow certain energy
12:38
generation to happen were they going to
12:40
they were going to tax the subsidies
12:42
that's not how it works it's not how it
12:43
works and some of that was uh it seems
12:45
even more childishly just trolling Rert
12:47
Low their former MP because he has a
12:50
concern in that industry in that sector
12:52
which is just you know not the basis of
12:54
making sense of a policy and when there
12:56
is more scrutiny on reforms uh economic
12:58
and business policies some of that stuff
13:00
might fall apart and then we're in real
13:02
trouble so let's hope the Conservatives
13:04
rediscover all of this and then we see
13:05
the kind of encouraging competition
13:07
between policy ideas that we're seeing
13:10
on the right and actually from Labor as
13:11
well everyone knows that mass migration
13:13
has been a big failure in lots of ways
13:15
and although we love lots of really
13:17
highskilled best in the world type
13:19
people coming we've had the complete
13:20
opposite of that so you know seeing
13:22
Labor and the Conservatives and reform
13:23
all pushing rightwards in that direction
13:25
we want to see that kind of competition
13:27
happening I think on business policy who
13:28
can be the friendliest towards business
13:30
who can have the the most deregulating
13:32
agenda who can cut taxes who can
13:35
incentivize more supply side changes
13:37
that we want to see that kind of
13:38
virtuous cycle happening there and we're
13:40
not seeing that at the moment because
13:41
the tries are not being strong enough on
13:42
it yeah I think that's a really good
13:44
point i suppose one thing I would say
13:45
from my conversations with business is
13:47
that they're not actually listening to
13:49
the tries at the moment they don't care
13:50
what they have to say they'll start
13:51
listening maybe a year or two out from
13:53
an election if it looks like they are
13:55
going to make some running which is what
13:56
Rachel Reeves managed to do it was about
13:58
two years before the election she
13:59
started laying the groundwork i think
14:01
Kem Benedok's issue is her own MPs and
14:05
her own leadership which she has been
14:07
slow to I think stamp on the party with
14:10
some slightly faltering PMQ's
14:11
performances and obviously having
14:14
um having rivals very clearly
14:16
campaigning for leadership um inside
14:19
from inside her cabinet i think that's
14:21
her problem at the moment yeah and look
14:23
it's a it's a much reduced party 121 MPs
14:26
now smallest it's been for hundreds of
14:28
years sort of pre pit the younger or
14:30
something like that um and I think that
14:32
there are some ideological differences
14:35
that need to be ironed out and my best
14:37
advice would be to just go after those
14:40
people who don't feel comfortable in a
14:42
chemox style conservative party rather
14:44
get them out now right make them put up
14:46
or shut up just stop pussyfooting around
14:48
a couple of people who really probably
14:50
don't need to be in that party anymore
14:52
and get on with it because you're going
14:53
to have to say the Conservatives rally
14:55
in a big way they get a big majority in
14:57
2029 they the sorts of things that they
14:59
or any other party is going to have to
15:02
do because of the state of the country
15:03
I'm afraid by then is going to be so
15:05
much more um staunch or robust let's say
15:09
than would otherwise be the case a lot
15:11
of those people in MPs in the left of
15:13
the Conservative party it's going to be
15:14
so uncomfortable with the necessary
15:16
things to be done that they're not going
15:18
to want to be in the party anyway so why
15:19
not pull off the plaster and just get on
15:22
with it now get rid of those people and
15:23
say this is what we believe and put up
15:25
or shut up because she was so good at
15:26
speaking her mind that when she was in
15:28
government for example and she seems to
15:30
have become timid in an attempt to hold
15:32
those various wings together yeah that's
15:34
politics for you isn't it um so finally
15:37
we're recording this on VE Day you wrote
15:40
us an excellent column um just take us
15:43
through what VE Day eight years ago um
15:46
when uh Britain and the Allies defeated
15:48
the Nazis what does it mean to you yeah
15:50
it's a it's a really lovely uh question
15:52
and a really lovely day to be asked
15:54
about this i think I start the piece by
15:56
pointing out how when you want someone
15:57
to really ham up a topic or even to go
16:00
full gammon for some reason you turn to
16:02
me moderate centrist man that I am Alice
16:05
and so that's how I open with it and and
16:07
but even someone like me finds it hard
16:08
to put into context all of this you know
16:10
we talk about in the piece about how the
16:13
1930s and 40s is the go-to time period
16:17
for anyone wanting to make any kind of
16:18
comparison right Nazis are the reason
16:20
that kids on American college campuses
16:23
justify punching each other in the face
16:25
it's what you slur your opponents with
16:26
you're a Nazi you're a neo-Nazi all
16:28
these sorts of things and so we lose the
16:30
sorts of lessons I think we should take
16:32
from it and when I was trying to reflect
16:33
on what it means I think that the main
16:35
takeaways are we did an amazing thing
16:37
standing up alone on this island our our
16:39
grandparents and great-grandparents
16:40
against this terrible evil i think it's
16:43
very important that we can talk in evil
16:45
and good sort of Manakian terms about
16:47
this we stood up for that we were the
16:49
first people to do that and we brought
16:51
others into the war and we defeated a
16:52
very very great evil and we should
16:54
therefore be proud of our ancestry and
16:57
we should be a little bit less hard on
16:59
ourselves because that's all we've done
17:00
for many years now is talk about how
17:02
awful Britain is and you some people
17:04
even now talking about Churchill being a
17:06
bad guy you think he's bad go and look
17:07
at the bloke that he beat yeah
17:09
absolutely i mean we are once again
17:12
unfortunately living through a time of
17:15
war on our continent and I
17:18
suppose it's very difficult to think in
17:20
those terms good and evil when it's our
17:24
brothers and sons and fathers who are
17:27
dying on the front line now it's very
17:29
difficult
17:32
to I don't know to put into words what
17:34
what war what putting your life on your
17:36
line for your country actually means
17:39
today um I think you talk in your piece
17:42
about the sort of the World War I notion
17:44
um that it's all a bit of a of a con
17:47
wilfrid talks about the old lie that
17:49
it's sweet and brave to die for your
17:51
country but that the Second World War
17:53
was a thoroughly different moral um
17:56
proposition i suppose what I makes me
17:59
think these days is like well Wilfred
18:00
Owen did still go out there and fight
18:02
for this country right absolutely um and
18:06
is that what you think perhaps people
18:08
who are fighting at the moment from
18:09
Russia for Russia on the Russian side
18:11
feel it's it's it's very difficult to
18:14
talk about in black and white terms I
18:16
think yeah it is what was the old line
18:18
dolce at Dormest Patrior and you can see
18:20
why the kind of futility of World War I
18:22
and the damage that it caused European
18:24
civilization perhaps irreparable uh for
18:27
for what exactly and yet the Second
18:29
World War we can paint in these much
18:31
more glowing terms but can you ever
18:32
paint a war as that black and white i
18:34
suppose I think I think the the um the
18:37
lingering effect that it has had on all
18:38
of our culture means that we have done
18:40
that and I think we were probably
18:42
broadly right to do that um well not
18:44
broadly we were completely right I think
18:45
to do that in that case and that whilst
18:47
that's not applicable to every single
18:48
war i do think that we should whether
18:50
it's about conflict or whether it's
18:52
about other forms of just public policy
18:54
in general we should start thinking
18:57
about things in terms of philosophy and
18:59
ideology and morality as not being
19:01
terrible things so when I was in
19:03
government uh it was during some of the
19:05
COVID times and there were some people
19:07
and this is a tangent but you'll
19:08
hopefully take the point who uh wanted
19:10
to put masks on even primary school
19:12
children all day not just when they walk
19:14
around the corridor all the time and I
19:16
was the only person in these meetings
19:17
saying this isn't a zerocost
19:19
intervention the way that you're all
19:20
saying it is this is going to have an
19:21
impact right what about people's freedom
19:23
what about people's liberty to not have
19:25
to put up with this stuff and people in
19:27
the civil service looked at me like I
19:28
just you know called their mother a bit
19:30
of a slur or something right these sorts
19:31
of ideas don't come into it so I think
19:33
that whilst everything I've said about
19:35
uh being more appreciative of of of our
19:38
um good works in the world I do think
19:41
that having a sense of morality about
19:42
public policy is important and and I
19:44
think that the kind of misplaced empathy
19:47
that we're seeing in so much of the West
19:49
at the moment people trying to be moral
19:51
and getting their their compass a little
19:53
haywire misplaced empathy well this idea
19:55
that you know people coming over say on
19:57
small boats well they must have had a
19:58
terrible life mustn't they and therefore
20:00
we should go and look after them well
20:01
you're doing that to the detriment of
20:03
the people who are in this country
20:04
already who've got lots of problems and
20:06
you're trying to you when you look at
20:08
something like the Hamas Israel issue
20:10
right of course that's very complicated
20:12
but people are starting to go well more
20:14
people have died on the on the
20:15
Palestinian side than the Israeli side
20:16
and therefore Israel bad well it doesn't
20:18
work like that and I think you know more
20:20
people died on the German side in World
20:21
War II than on the British side for
20:22
example does that mean that Britain were
20:24
the baddies of course it doesn't and so
20:26
I just think that we should include a
20:27
bit more of this and I think that with
20:29
the kind of gray relativism of our age
20:32
and the kind of self- flagagillating
20:34
hatred that we seem to have of all of
20:36
our history that that stuff needs to end
20:38
trump has shown that that's a winning
20:41
electoral calculus at the very least as
20:42
well and that we should look up to uh
20:46
those sorts of forebears that we've got
20:47
rather than just live off the vespers of
20:49
it and try and have a restoration of
20:51
pride and morality going forward in
20:53
public policy not just kind of managed
20:55
decline and stakeholderism
20:58
favorite war poem uh it's the Edmund
21:01
London one I think obviously that I
21:02
quoted in here it will make me tear tear
21:04
up if I do this it was an unpublished
21:06
one um and you can go on I think the
21:08
Imperial War Museum website to see the
21:09
whole thing or you can see it in citym
21:11
but it just says in the I think this is
21:13
the penultimate verse um their will
21:16
their skill now intimately known and
21:18
those their leaders of one mind to frame
21:21
vast strategies from which escape was
21:24
none and all their actions rise to
21:26
future fame be theirs sweet peace dear
21:30
love kind rain and sun the life for
21:33
which they marched and sailed and flew
21:37
reunion restoration and freedom deep and
21:41
true that is the perfect note on which
21:43
to end and I love to have a bit of
21:45
poetry here at Free Thinking thank you
21:48
so much James pleasure as always
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