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It's been described by a certain Piers Morgan as preposterous, hasn't it
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A professional women's pool tournament has been hit by protests after the final was contested by two transgender players
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So Harriet Haynes beat Lucy Smith to win the ultimate pool women's pro series title
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after they both got past four female opponents on their way to the final in Wigan
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Thoughts? So? You have no problem with two transgender women, so biological males, getting to..
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Not only getting to the final, but both of them getting to the final and competing against each other
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so there was no female contestant left in the final. I think some people would take issue with using the word female in that way
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OK, what's a woman, then? What's your definition of a female? I think if you're going to go down the definitional argument
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you could pick any item in this room and say, what's your definition of that, and you would find a word
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you'd find a string of words... Oh, come on, you're a sensible person. You know what the definition of a woman is. Come on
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Most women are people... I'm not going to go down a definition of that. Why not? You're acting
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like Kiss Dharma now. Well, no, because it's just a silly question. No, I'm sorry. You either have a
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women's category or you don't. You have a women's category in pool, therefore it should
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only be biological females who are in that category. Otherwise, it's not fair
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on many levels. When you ask the question, what is a woman? Like the answer that I'm supposed to give is adult human female, right
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Well no you not supposed to give it I just want to know what you think But that just a tautology Well not really Because you just using a Then you could ask what a female So no do you believe that a female is someone who identifies as female
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rather than has the biological make-up of a female? No, I don't think that I could just, for example
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tomorrow identify as a female like that. I don't believe that. But I do believe that there are transgender people..
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But if you've had a bit of surgery and a few hormones, then yes
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I do believe that there are transgender people who need to be treated with dignity and respect
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OK, sure, but does that mean they get to go in the women's category of pool? And win the competition
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Pool, as far as I am aware... And you don't know anything about this. I've looked it up
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Pool is a game where you have balls on a felt surface
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and you hit them with a stick, right? So I've actually read what female pool players say about this
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and they say that men, biological males, have an advantage in pool
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because they are taller in general. They have a longer arm span
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They also have less wide hips, narrower hips, which apparently is an advantage too
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Do you know how tall Harriet Haynes, who was the winner, is? No, I don't, but I'm saying on average..
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Right, but is that out of... So if there is a woman who is six foot tall, she should not be allowed to play tennis
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Tom, you either have a female category or you don't, OK? So if you're arguing that we just have gender-neutral categories
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in all sports, fine. I'm not. But otherwise, you don't have a female category
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I'm saying that there are some sports where it's absolutely inappropriate for people who went through male..
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But you don't know anything about porn or anything about sports in general, do you
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Should you ban a transgender woman from being in a pistol team Why We not talking about pistol It a sport It a Olympic sport If there female category then yes it should only be for biological females
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Chess. Same with that. If there's a female category... Why do you think women are worse at chess than men
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I don't think women are worse at chess. If you have a female category, then you stick to it being female
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If you have a male category, you stick to being male. What do you mean by female? If you want no categories at all in your particular sport
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and everyone within that sport agrees, that is fine. So what you're doing here is you're trying to say
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that transgender women are male... Biologically, they're not the same as women
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who are biologically female and were born female and are female. So what you're..
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In a chromosomal way, in a biological way, in every other way. Is this just sport that you'd apply it to
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or do you want to apply it to every realm of life? I'm currently talking about sport
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What you won't admit is that there's any difference between a transgender female and a female
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You won't admit that. Now, this isn't about bigotry, this isn't about discrimination
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this isn't about saying that these transgender women can't live their lives
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But they can't compete, in my view, in a female category because they are not female in the same way as a woman is female
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I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Why do you think there have been protests? Why do you think one of these female pool plays
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is so furious about this? So your argument here isn't about any innate biological advantage
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in the sport, it's about categorisation. It's about that and category. I talking more about the category in this case because we don know Because it pool No no no Also because I think it a better argument Because fundamentally I think it a strong argument and just ends the argument really
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You either have a female category or you don't. In pool, we have a female category and a male category
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But you keep using... If you want to have a gender-neutral tournament, then go ahead. You keep using the term female category
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So, for example, we also have female loos. Do you think that transgender women should be allowed
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to use female loos in supermarkets? Probably not. I think there should be gender-neutral loos
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You think that transgender women... We're not talking about loos, though. We're talking about a competition
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Female sports already don't get as much input in terms of cash
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in terms of marketing often, in terms of all sorts of things. And now you have two people, born male
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who are winning the tournament that females have been obviously training a lot for
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and it means a lot to them. It means a lot to these people as well. Yes, but I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry
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But because someone identifies as female does not mean that they are female in the same way as someone who's born as female
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That's not to say that I have anything against transgender women. I don't, right
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But I don't think they can compete in a female category. You've just admitted that you don't think it's because there's an innate advantage
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No, I do think there is also... You think it's because of the category? I have been told by pool players who I've read what they've had to say
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and they do say that there are some male advantages in terms of, as I already explained
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Anyway, let us know what you think. No, I didn't just say that. I said arm span
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We've already gone over this. I say that there should be a female and a male category. If you want to have a gender neutral category, have one